Pain Free Kauai | Dustin Dillberg | Podcast

Greg: So our guest today is Dustin Dillberg. Dustin is a Doctor of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine, owner of Pain-Free Kauai in Lihue, Hawaii. Dustin Dillberg is a graduate of the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, the Egoscue University, and Pettibon spinal technologies. He has extensive experience working with many top professional athletes, speaking around the country on topics of nutrition and natural medicine, and has also worked at Rady’s Children’s Hospital here in San Diego, Egoscue Clinic, and he continues to teach as an instructor for Egoscue University. Dustin returned to Kauai in 2007, bringing his knowledge and experience in Chinese medicinal herbs, nutrition, postural therapy, and he’s excited to offer the best in functional health care and sports medicine to aid his hometown community. The Pain-Free Kauai Clinic specializes in natural healthcare solutions, including stress-relieving acupuncture, Egoscue Method of postural corrective exercise, deep tissue, laser therapy, and lifestyle medicine. Dr. Dillberg has also co-authored a book with professional pro-surfer Bethany Hamilton, called Body And Soul. Dustin, it’s super great to have you with us today, joining from beautiful Kauai. And we were just talking beforehand that you just got back from New Zealand, scoring some surf, and I’m jealous. And did you get some good surfing in Kauai, as well?

Dustin: Yeah, there’s plenty of fun waves to be had and feel blessed to live in such a paradise.

Greg: That’s awesome. So, let’s just jump right in. You offer a really wide range of services. Of course, acupuncture and Egoscue training, and nutritional coaching, and mentoring. And I’m curious how you split your time with all of those specialties? And, so, what are your average clients like? What does an average client session look like? Do you integrate these things with everybody? Are you more focused in one particular area? Give us a snapshot of what your sessions look like.

Dustin: Great question. And it really is unique, every single situation. I tried to remove my, you know, my own thought process and just kind of be present with the patient. I love looking at the body like it’s a big chain and if we can identify that chain’s weakest link and address that, because the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, right? It has a breaking point and oftentimes that’s in people’s emotional patterns, stress levels. Other people, you know, it’s going to be in their physical posture and alignment – old injuries and things like that, or nutrition, or sleep patterns, breathing. It really can be whatever it is. So I want to try to address that in a unique and specific pattern, no matter who we’re dealing with, so that we can get the fastest, most dramatic results as possible.

Greg: So, really individualized, unique approach specific to each individual patient?

Dustin: Yeah. And the more techniques that we use or have available in our toolbox, I found us to be so powerful and that it gives you a different set of lenses to look at. Even your existing tool box, you know, your tools. With Chinese medicine – it’s my first love of medicine – it seemed like a mystical, magical art form. When I was introduced to it as a very young child, I fell in love with it. And now, watching western medicine describe and understand Chinese medicine from a different lens, I found really fascinating. If we add in other aspects of nutrition, and posture, and movement, and all of that, you start looking at this image from such a three-dimensional view. You start looking at it from the back side and the other side. So the big mountain that you want to try to achieve, the apex of and conquer, I think needs to be looked at from all the different angles because you don’t know if you’ve done it perfectly. Just to get to the top, there might be a whole different side that you had no idea about.

Greg: Totally, yeah. I guess I should back up and ask you, how did you get interested in acupuncture in the first place?

Dustin: My father’s an acupuncturist – he’s a chiropractor and acupuncturist. His story is amazing. He was introduced to TCM through a master from Asia and he brought me along. I was in a unfortunate auto accident. I was hit by a car while I was riding my bike when I was a little kid. I had extensive injuries from that and post injury from ligament damage, my neck, migraines, and all sorts of other issues. Acupuncture removed my headaches. It made me feel like I was balanced again. Of course, as a young kid, there was the fear of needles and things like that, that my dad and, luckily, Bruce Lee got me through thinking from a different perspective of how great acupuncture is and I just absolutely jumped in with both feet.

Greg: Does your dad still practice?

Dustin: He does. He practices here on the south side of Kauai, as well. He’s paved a wonderful path for me and he was the one that started teaching me the basics and allowing me to needle him from the age of seven on.

Greg: Oh, is that right? Wow!

Dustin: Really blessed to have that upbringing.

Greg: I don’t think I’d let my nine-year-old near me with needles but maybe I’ll try that.

Dustin: Yeah, check it out. It’s a test of faith, that’s for sure.

Greg: That’s true, yeah. So, you guys don’t work together? Do you share clinic?

Dustin: We do share quite a few patients and we work on each other a ton. I worked in his clinic when I first came out of school for five years. You know, was blown away by a mixture of techniques. He does some incredible functional medicine testing and work, a lot of in-depth posture work, as well. He was my contact to Dr. Pettibon for real in-depth spinal rehab cases, I introduced him to the Egoscue Method. So we have a lot of symmetry in our practice and we love working together but I also needed to spread my wings and prove a lot of ways to myself that I could practice the way that I felt like I was led to.

Greg: Okay, yeah, that’s interesting. I can totally relate to that; not for myself but my wife. She’s a professional dancer and choreographer and so is her mother. And so I see that kind of lineage in our family, as well, how important it is to have that type of individuality and expression. It’s really important.

Dustin: Yeah and it’s great though, to have those influences and to have the resources. To be able to, you know, call on those so close to you that you know have your best interests at heart, guide you and bounce ideas off of and everything. I feel so fortunate.

Greg: Yeah, especially when you’re – well, you’re not young in practice anymore – but when you are young in practice. I remember when I was first licensed, I used to call my teachers all the time. Like, “I don’t know what to do, I’ve got this amputee with phantom pain. What do I do?” Alex Tiberi’s like, “Needle the table.” You know?

Dustin: Yeah, I remember him telling me the same thing. That’s awesome!

Greg: Are you serious?

Dustin: Yeah. That’s truly – he said, “Just lay that needle down, right where your intent is.”

Greg: Yeah, did it work. I have used that a few times. And to be honest, I haven’t used that as much, as far as just the table, but with a lot of energy and intent. And phantom pain is such a fascinating thing and amputees are such a blessing to work with, for sure. And so, there’s some interesting techniques that he definitely opened my eyes to, led me down a path. So, I want to ask you about the spinal technology work you did with Dr. Pettibon. Can you share? Because I’d never heard of Dr. Pettibon so I’m really curious about that, among other things that you do.

Dustin: Sure. So, Dr. Pettibon – really ahead of his time, in a lot of ways – he looked at the body and rehab. One of my favorite sayings that he would throw at us is, we practice rehab supported by chiropractic and not the other way around. And that is, as he was teaching chiropractors and all of that, he was actually the one that, in a lot of ways, talked me out of going to chiropractic school. I was on that path and he said, “Chinese medicine is really, in so many ways, the root of what we’re doing,” with the work that Pettibon stands for. And so, through bone-setting techniques and between structural work and all of that, those are your hands-on techniques. He, of course, specialized in many great mobilization techniques but he called it “mobilizations” and not “adjustments.”

Greg: Okay.

Dustin: He taught me that and that we’re not necessarily trying to force the spine into a different alignment, but rather, mobilize it and retrain the nervous system and the muscles and how to hold that. And so, he was very rehab-focused and he specialized in being able to correct the curves of the spine in a more profound way than I had seen, and continue to search for, something that can come close to that.

Greg: You see a chiropractor?

Dustin: He’s a chiropractor, yeah. He passed a couple years ago and made a huge impact. I think he spoke or taught at most of the chiropractic schools in the nation at one point or another. And it was a fantastic asset to our healthcare community. He retired mostly in Gig Harbor, Washington and was doing some fantastic work. So I had a great opportunity to work with him, and pretty closely with him, in multiple clinic settings. And I found that the connection of Pettibon’s work and Egoscue, which they had never connected to my knowledge, but they are so synergistic and fantastic. And so, looking at it in a microscope on the spinal level and neurological level, and then on a greater level on head-to-toe postural components – beautiful marriage.

Greg: So, would he use postural corrective exercises like the Egoscue teaching or would it be mostly therapists, like you, working on the body with manual mobilizations?

Dustin: Very much rehab-exercise focused. He had something called “the link trainer,” a lot of foam block exercises and other movements. But what he found to be most effective is a weight, like a harness situation, where the easiest way to describe it is – we know that the body pulls away from weight stimulus. If you hold the weight out in front of you, your body counterbalances and pulls back. And so, you’ve found forward head posture which, we know, is a huge problem and a worsening problem with our technological age, right? If you were to put a weighted head harness on the front of your forehead, your body would pull against that and strengthen the correct neck muscles to obtain that proper cervical curve and alignment again. And so, you could offset that if you have a head tilt and other things.

Greg: And you adjust with weight – counterbalancing weight?

Dustin: Exactly. So, head, shoulder, and hip weight harnesses could take twist rotation and other components of spinal misalignment out of the equation.

Greg: Was he using – did he design any specific apparatus? Like, straps or bands or specific weights to work on different areas of the body? I mean, the head’s kind of tricky, right?

Dustin;: Yeah, he has a number of patented weighted harnesses. So, head harness, shoulder harness, hip harness. He has a repetitive cervical traction unit that I think is fantastic in a wobble chair, that I still think is one of the most profound rehabilitative tools for lumbar disc injuries.

Greg: A wobble chair – like the wobble board?

Dustin: Kind of, yeah. It’s a chair that is on a real small axis pivot point so it can move in every different direction. And so, you can take the spine through range of motion that helps to rehydrate and rehabilitate the disc and the supporting ligaments nicely.

Greg: I’d like to see that.

Dustin: It’s fantastic. Take a look – Pettibon Institute, I believe, is their website – and you can Google “Pettibon rehabilitative exercise.”There’s a whole bunch of great Youtubes.

Greg: Does he have – so he’s passed, unfortunately – are there people that are carrying the torch? I mean, you’re in practice. They continue to teach it?

Dustin: Yeah. There’s certification seminars and continuing education opportunities out there still. And it’s fantastic work – expanding more in the direction of functional neurology in a lot of ways as well, from my understanding.

Greg: Okay. So, I noticed when I was looking at your website which, by the way, for listeners, is painfree-kauai.com – that’s “painfree” one word, dash, kauai.com, and we’ll link to it in this podcast – which is a great website, by the way, really. You know, I always like looking at people’s websites and then meeting them in-person. This just really captures you. It’s very upbeat, it’s pretty – not that you’re pretty, you’re a handsome guy, okay.

Dustin: You’re too kind.

Greg: Yeah. I mean, it’s a really, it’s a friendly website. But I was looking here, you have a Youtube video where you’re demonstrating, you’re training Bethany Hamilton. And I noticed you’re using the TRX System in that particular training video. And so, I want to get you to elaborate on that a little bit. First of all, how did you meet Bethany Hamilton? For those surfers that are listening in, you all know Bethany Hamilton. For others who may not know Bethany, can you give us some background on her a little bit, and how you guys hooked up, and the book you wrote together, and how that happened?

Dustin: Absolutely. Bethany is a quiet girl, she’s born and raised here on the island. She is an incredible surfer. I think most avid surfers – especially those that really study the sport and understand technique and and skill level talent – agree that she, most likely, would have multiple world championships under her belt had she not been attacked by a shark when she was 13. She lost her arm in that attack, surfing a spot on the north shore here, called Tunnels. And she used that unfortunate event to the best of her ability. I mean, she’s influenced millions of people on how to live a more fulfilled life, a healthy life. She’s such a health advocate, it’s incredible. She really practices what she preaches. She’s a huge inspiration to, I think, everyone in the world. She had a movie created about her and her story, called “Soul Surfer,” and has a new documentary-style film coming out called “Unstoppable” – it’s June or July this year. And it’s a real, live step-by-step processor story of, honestly, how she lives. She sets goals and she achieves them. So I had the opportunity to travel to Tahiti with her during some of the filming of that and watching her take off on waves of Teahupoo. She is an incredible human being and I’m really honored to be able to work with her. She has been – we live on, kind of, opposite sides of the island and it’s funny how many micro systems and bubbles there are on this island – but through different church connections and just the surfing industry, I competed against her brother growing up. And so, when I came back from school, we started working on her healthcare and she is the type of woman – you’ll learn from that documentary if you’re able to watch it – literally, you say “I want you to do two of these” and she comes back and she says “Is there a problem if I did ten?” And she keeps pushing the envelope. And so, I just soaked it up as we started working together. Everything I gave her, she wanted more and she asked for more. And she completed that plus 10, kind-of-a-thing. And so, I was able to learn so much by working with her. I was able to start deconstructing posture therapy in a different way because amputees – especially, above the elbow or above the knee – amputees, they are missing a quadrant of stabilization to their spine. They aren’t getting the stimulus to that quadrant or limb. And so, their spine has a tendency to really divert towards scoliosis and things like that. So, we have constructed and devised multiple plans along – been working with her over 10 years to combat that and to hone her skills and then take her performance levels to whatever degree that we can push them. And nutrition, and sleep, and breathing, and all of that – she’s just hungry for more. So it’s been, it’s been fantastic.

Greg: Yeah. I was really impressed watching, just speaking to how you were able to customize her workout with the TRX band and how you were doing some stables – I forget what you’re doing – but you moved it way up high on the shoulder so she was still able to work the lats or her core and stuff. And it was really, it was really impressive.

Dustin: Her engagement of her scapula and stabilization to her spine has always been a major focus. And then being able to transfer stabilization, muscle engagement from her missing limb to her opposite hip and down to ankle stability. Even in different things through different forces, the TRX is a great tool that we’ve been able to use with that. But we’ve pulled out a couple dozens, if not just trying to see now that you’ve achieved or conquered that demand, where’s a weak link. Where is the instability and how do we most directly address that? So, through Patch training with Egoscue, all sorts of fun stuff.

Greg: Is there a Patch over there?

Dustin: I built a Patch, actually, thanks to my father. We built a Patch and have used it, basically until it broke down through our moisture and the wood started rotting and things like that. Yeah, we also have the portable Patch circulating through our school systems on Kauai. It’s available if anybody on Kauai is looking for the Patch. We have it available and they’re happy to train people up on it.

Greg: That’s cool. So, for our listeners that don’t know what the Patch is, maybe you could share a little bit with the what the Patch is? We talked to Brian Bradley, Vice President of Egoscue, a while ago on one of our podcasts. And we linked to it there but for our listeners here today, why don’t you describe what the Patch is for them?

Dustin: The Patch is basically an obstacle course that forces you to work through your dysfunctions, rather than around them. You’re going to be going over things, under them, balancing on things. You’re going to be using your body in very functional patterns to create symmetry and balance. And so, we do everything equally on both sides. We don’t let people get around, you know, their little faults or cheats. And we address movement patterns through different demands. And so it can be, it was mimicked after a tomato patch – just a bunch of beans that you go over, under, climbing apparatuses. The Patch that we have on my father’s property had a big cargo net climbing area, all sorts of fun stuff. And so, the Patch doesn’t need to be anything that structured. However, we can create a Patch in a small room with a couple little things. Or, you can even imagine what the obstacle is and you can always do a Patch workout with zero equipment.

Greg: It could be a tree.

Dustin: Absolutely, yeah. And that’s really the whole point of it, is let’s get outside of our contained environment. Let’s get back to the nature, let’s move the way we’re designed to. Yeah, so Patch has been awesome, it’s an interesting little mecca for athletes. Also – since San Diego is where PCOM’s home base is – the pitcher for The Padres, Kirby Yates, who just got his 12th save last night or the night before, this early on in the season. It’s doing great, he’s from about four miles from here.

Greg: Oh, is that right?

Dustin: And another patient of mine, awesome person and great athlete, awesome.

Greg: Hey, I want to go back. I want to go back and ask you about one more question about Bethany, I promise we’ll move on. How does she catch – I can barely catch waves, okay, I’ve been surfing since I was six – she’s got one arm, how does she catch waves?

Dustin: She, in the the most loving sense of the word, she is a freak. And she is so determined, yeah. And so, it doesn’t stop there. So she is efficient as can be. She figures out how to use her body in ways that most people take for granted. So she uses the buoyancy of her board to initiate the movement and paddle. She knows timing better than any surfer I’ve ever come across. But it doesn’t stop there. When she catches the wave, she has to stand up with one arm. And then from standing up, which I encourage any surfer, is listening to go and play around with and try that.

Greg: You’ll just fall off.

Dustin: It took me a while. What I do is literally take one arm, hold the back of my surf shorts, and try to paddle and catch waves on one arm. Even on a long board, it’s an incredibly fun exercise actually. And with practice, you can achieve it.

Greg: I’m going to try

Dustin: When it’s small, go play. Take your longboard out and try to stand up with one arm. Switch arms, try to do it with the other arm because I don’t want you getting any postural imbalances. Try to stand up regular versus goofy and all those types of things because it’s incredible what your body can adapt to when it’s tested or pushed to that limit.

Greg: That makes sense.

Dustin: I mean, Bethany’s doing big air 360s.

Greg: That’s amazing.

Dustin: I know. I mean, she’s catching literally 50-foot waves at certain places that will be shown in the documentary. I can’t wait to see that Teahupoo and pipeline – she won a pipe contest, and those are the scariest waves that I’ve been described. I was about the same age as when you started there and love surfing and I am scared to death at serving pipe and paddle my heart out with both arms when it’s a little overhead. And she’s out there, triple the size, and handling it. So she’s awesome, an incredible athlete.

Greg: Yeah, that’s amazing. So are you working with – are there any other pro athletes that you’re working with? Or, what’s the ratio pro versus lay people and what’s your patient-base like?

Dustin: I work with so many awesome people. Most of them are not pro athletes. Most of them are, you know, heroes in their own respect – whether that’s because they’re mothers, grandmothers, parents, fathers, plumbers, electricians. It doesn’t matter to me. I feel like everybody is so special that way. So I hope and pray that no one thinks that by working with a pro athlete that changes who you are as a practitioner or makes you better than someone else. No way. I am so proud of Kirby Yates. So just because he’s one of the nicest guys on the planet, he’s achieving such success with the Padres. Work with a few NFL players from time to time, other MLB players, and let’s see – a lot of the surf community, so that’s where most of my pro athletes are. Sebastian Zietz is on the world tour right now and I traveled around to the the championship tours destinations the first couple years out of school. And we’re working with a lot of the pros on contest sites and that was a fantastic opportunity. So thanks to Freddy Patacchia, and Jordy Smith, and a lot of those guys that helped fund my way to work with the pro athletes on that level. I’m very thankful for the opportunity and experience with that.

Greg: Yeah, that’s an awesome gig. I went to high school with Steve Sherman – you know Steve?

Dustin: Yeah.

Greg: Yeah, he’s a good friend of mine. Steve was the photo editor – for our listeners – of Surfing Magazine and he’s a brilliant photographer. Mostly a portrait photographer for all the pro surfers and stuff he’s doing.

Dustin: Great work, though. And I see him on the north shore quite a bit.

Greg: Yeah, he’s a local guy – Torrey Pines High School guy. So, let’s talk a little bit about how you incorporate some of the other modalities. So, we know you’re doing acupuncture, doing great work with training, and just a variety of postural stuff. And i’m adjusting my posture as I’m thinking about your training, thank you very much. That’s the magic of that word, “posture.” It’s just automatically, right away, “sit up straight.” Talk about some of the ways in which you’re using, you know, breath work. And I know you’re really interested in breath work and in your work. So, how are you incorporating that? There’s so many, you know, different approaches. I mean, you got the Wim Hof Method, you’ve got traditional qigong methods, you’ve got the yogic breathing. Even now, I was listening to podcasts with Ben Greenfield interviewing Ted Harty – he instructs free divers and his whole system of breathing techniques is totally different than Wim Hof. But, how are you incorporating it? What is your background in breath work and how are you working with that?

Dustin: Well, background-wise, breathing is such a key component to surf training and being in the water. If you’re gonna try and fish, dive, or you’re concerned about being held under by big waves, breathing became of interest to me at a young age. I grew up, you know, swimming to the bottom of the ocean grabbing a rock and running as far as you can. Doing all that kind of stuff is just a part of playing around at the beach. But breathing, I think, is worthy of its own podcast. And maybe, you know, a couple thousand episodes. There are so many components to the breath and I think it’s so fundamental and foundational to every system in our body. It’s connected, as we know in Chinese medicine, everything is connected. And in posture work, the way that Pettibon is always hammering, that our body from head to toe is one basic muscle separated into different components or parts. The way that Thomas Myers describes also, in Anatomy Trains, our bodies are so intertwined. However, the diaphragm and the breathing component in the lungs, I think, are kind of a linchpin that are really a place that we should all investigate at the start.

Greg: Totally.

Dustin: So, let’s talk about it from posture perspective. Most people are not hip-engaged, they don’t drive from the hips. We talk about it in zones of muscle firing and neurological sequencing. We should be firing one, two, three. And just to quickly go over what zones one, two, and three mean, as I go over the with my patients, is your zone one is: your diaphragm should always be working properly. So, as in glutes – I know Brian Bradley talks about the psoas and glutes being the king and queen of posture – I think the diaphragm is just so tightly related to those. I even created – or I borrowed – that from multiple other systems, calling that zone one. Zone two is between the knees and the shoulders. Zone three is head to toe, including the arms. And so, we should always fire – I don’t care if you just click on your mouse on your computer – zone one, first, should be neurologically activated prior to zone two or three. Unfortunately, we fail to move properly and our body is such an amazing adaptive unit that we can fire differently for a certain period of time. But it starts to create problems and so – coming back to the breath and the diaphragm – if we are not firing zone one properly, our hips aren’t stable. We’re not driving our movements from zone one, our breathing gets disengaged. And I would say with well over 80 of my patients, they have a breathing issue that’s severe not just moderate. It’s a severe breathing problem and the component of your diaphragm not being capable of contracting and releasing to bring oxygen into your lungs is due to its compensation as being a stabilizer. It’s your internal wire. It’s going to contract to a certain degree and in different ratios of different areas of that umbrella-like diaphragm just to keep your torso somewhat stable because your glutes have turned off, your hips aren’t activated, you’re rounding forward hunched over a computer more hours than you should be. And so, we breathe on average 22,000 times a day yet we’re not using that diaphragm that’s designed to take that type of burden and is the most efficient way to do so. We then compensate and start firing our scalenes and our traps and all of these other upper body and neck issues. It further worsens the forward head posture, our lymphatic system is shot once that happens. Your subclavian veins have tons of muscle tension and stagnation there and that’s where your lymph system is draining back into your cardiovascular system, right? So sternocleido, that largest lymph node network, sits directly under your diaphragm. If you’re not contracting, releasing, pushing that lymph fluid back up to your upper body and heart, you’re gonna be stagnant. You’re gonna feel, you know, effects such as drowsiness and slow recovery and all of that. You’re not getting to – your qi is going to be stagnant all over the place. And if your diaphragm isn’t contracting for your breath very efficiently, I’ve found that your glutes almost can’t fire the way that they’re supposed to. And so, we just have this downward spiral between postural imbalances and movement problems, to detoxification issues, or liver isn’t going to be as supple and soft. I mean, liver qi and blood stagnation – we know how often we see that. Yeah, I don’t know many people that don’t have some type of digestive deficiency these days. I wish it weren’t the case but it just seems like we all do.

Greg: Totally.

Dustin: Everything kind of comes back to breathing. And so, if we can stimulate our breathing patterns and test and challenge them in different ways, I think we’re going to be a healthier human in every aspect. I like doing that with breath-holds. I love the Wim Hof Method, I love what that does for your neurological system and neurotransmitter changes and chemistry. But I don’t think it’s the exclusive or only way we should train our breath. The same way that we shouldn’t only train exercises by doing squats, for sure, we gotta work out in different ways. And so, I don’t think there’s necessarily a wrong breathing technique out there. It’s just how you use it and how balanced you are. Where is your weak link and what stimulus does your body need? And I think that’s where working with somebody that loves and is passionate about breath work comes in handy. So they can, kind of, guide you and make your time most efficient.

Greg: Yeah. As you’re talking about the zones, I’m reflecting on the different cultural influences that maybe – I don’t know if they’re the cause or there’s just the differences, right? You have the – pardon the generalization – but you have the eastern, let’s just call them the eastern cultures, where we don’t have this sort of “upper machismo.” You know, bench pressing, huge biceps and triceps, and all this upper stuff. What zone? Three, right?

Dustin: Right.

Greg: Zone three, yeah. Zone two and three, heavy stuff.

Dustin: Right.

Greg: They’re more dropped down, right into zone one. So by definition, you know, they’re maybe breathing better. And so, maybe these cultural differences play a big part, you know? Here, we want to tighten up the abdomen we want to look all nice and swimsuit-ready, right? And we’re chest-breathers, fundamentally.

Dustin: Mirrors are a huge problem with breathing patterns. You look in the mirror – I don’t know many people that don’t suck it in and start to breathe differently within seconds of looking at yourself in the mirror, right? And that’s an interesting component. When you look at our paintings of those eastern influencers, Buddha and the people of that nature, they have a very different posture. Not saying that they’re posturally perfect or it’s our goal, necessarily, of balanced health. But it is definitely an opposing viewpoint, for sure.

Greg: Yeah, interesting stuff. So, talk a bit about breath work and how it influences posture and lymphatic system? And I really appreciate your insights on that and looking at those zones. That should give our listeners a lot of food for thought and, hopefully, as we’re talking about that, they’re doing some introspection right now. Let’s talk a little bit about your approach to some of the nutrition topics that are kind of hot today like intermittent fasting, and ketogenic diets, and that kind of thing. What are you seeing in your clients? What are you advocating? What are you recommending? What’s your personal interest?

Dustin: Such a fun set of topics. I think that we see these trends come and go. We see, you know, different things come with extreme perspectives. Yeah, and I love experimentation. I think our bodies should always be in a state of assessment. Experiment – figure out what’s working for you, what’s not working for you. Identify how your own makeup, genetically or however you want to describe it, adapts to your surroundings and stimulus. And I don’t think everybody thrives on a ketogenic diet. I am an advocate for keto, in a lot of senses. I’ve seen absolute, huge, like groundbreaking changes in many of my metabolic syndrome patients, my heart disease patients, even certain detoxification issues are clearing up so rapidly once people get into a healthy state of keto. But there’s a lot of people doing keto wrong, right? A lot of people doing keto on very low quality bacon as their primary and only food source for majority of each day.

Greg: So, let’s back up for our listeners and describe what the keto diet is or what are the proponents of ketogenic diets professing?

Dustin: That your body can use fat as fuel. And so, I’m a huge fan of being balanced with your amounts of fat. But keto is the state of burning fat as fuel, producing ketones as the so-called “exhaust,” the byproduct of burning fat. Your brain uses ketones as one of its primary fuel patterns. Insulin sensitivity is re-sensitized or balanced by ketones to a good degree, as well. So, there’s a lot of benefits of having ketones circulate throughout your system. Yeah, I think doing keto correctly – which I don’t think there’s one way to do keto correctly – but to identify how your body adapts properly to it, is the way to go. So being much more vegetable heavy than most basic keto-level practices profess that you, kind of, have to stay away from all carbs – vegetables being a big component of that. I don’t agree with that. I think what Dr. Will Cole is doing with Ketotarian, his book, being a plant-based keto diet is really fascinating. I think it’s very eye-opening for a lot of those that are going hardcore meat-focused paleo keto.

Greg: What’s the name of that book?

Dustin: Ketotarian

Greg: Oh, Ketotarian. Not familiar with it, Ketotarian.

Dustin: Like vegetarian, but ketotarian. And it’s a plant-based approach to the keto-like diet, okay? Yeah, great guy, very intelligent doctor and doing great work. Then – in terms of fasting and things like that – we, of course, want to achieve balance, right? That’s the whole premise that I think TCM and western medicine is coming to, in different ways. I love seeing how ancient TCM methods are being brought to light in western science and study, and things like that. Yeah, I think it’s fantastic but that’s a slightly different topic. But fasting, I think, can be fantastic. If you look, traditionally, we didn’t have food from the moment we woke up till the moment we bed. We should have moments of fasts, I think, as even different sexes can handle fasting in different ways. Females are more nurturing and, commonly, are going to need more frequent eating than males. Some of the research is showing that males can handle longer fast periods more effectively and safer. I still think there’s a lot more research that’s needed on those topics and there’s going to be a bell curve within that and extremes on on either side. So please, don’t take anything I’m saying is sexist.

Greg: Well, females do produce blood that requires nutrients, micronutrients, etc. And, you know, we produce blood but not as much as they do, right?

Dustin: Absolutely. And so, I think intermittent fasting is fantastic. I’m having some fun diving deeper into some of the fast-mimicking diets and getting some fantastic results with that with my patients. And with the idea of “Let’s come back to common sense,” going back to what’s the most natural thing our body’s designed to do and what type of stimulus – and I love the word, “stress” – it’s good for our body. The same way that exercise is a stress to our muscles. We know that exercise doesn’t make us stronger, right? It makes us weaker, temporarily, and it’s our adaptation to that stress that makes us better. I think fasting can be thought of the same way that we want to stress our system to be able to acclimate and handle different scenarios in a more efficient way. Yeah, as can breath-holds, as can postural challenges. All of those types of things we want to look at it as stress is a great thing, executed properly.

Greg: Yeah. I was having a conversation with Matt Walden, he’s a trainer, he’s a Paul Chek trainer out of London. He’s been working with us on our Health and Human Performance coaching program and we were discussing with this concept of the allostatic load which, I’m sure, you’re familiar with. And that speaks to this, you know, this homeostasis of stressors – good, bad – and that speaks to that.

Dustin: Yeah and I think there’s an important concept of over-stimulus, over-stressing and under-recovery. You know what I mean? There’s, I think less in the fitness world, less over-training than we complain about. There’s a huge problem with under-recovery, though.

Greg: Oh, for sure.

Dustin: Over-training happens at a very different threshold. If you’re not sleeping right and you’re stressed out of your mind and your nutrition is subpar, we need to look at it from a different perspective and see how those ratios can change.

Greg: Interesting, so true. Yeah, I mean, that’s always a question in my mind when I’m when working with patients. It’s like, we only get them for, you know, we’re only in a room with our patients or outside training them for an hour, right? And so, for an hour, they’re just chilling, right? Just relaxing with needles in them or whatever. But the rest of the time, the interval between, it’s like they’re doing whatever they’re going to do. So our ability to manage or help them manage their health is only as good as our ability to measure their outcomes, right? So how are you finding that? Where’s that sweet spot with that, have you found, to be effective? Is it just through your charting “Oh, my pain is at a seven this week and last week it was at 10?” Or, what are you noticing? I mean, obviously, you have to get objective and subjective measurements. How are you?

Dustin: Absolutely. I really think the core of what I try to get through to my patients is getting them in touch with their own bodies again because distraction, I think, is the most overused drug in our society right now. Yeah, we tune out, we disconnect in a terrible way. And so if we can reconnect them to what innately they already know, we’re going to have the most profound effect. Because, like you said, we’re only there for an hour. Even if I can test something incredibly specifically, that test is accurate for how much time. What’s going on the other 23 hours a day or how many days or weeks in between I’m seeing them, right? I get so much more data from them if I teach them how to listen and trust their body. Yeah, and I think it was a really fun and profound conversation that we had actually, in one of the doctoral classes, about how often the patients know the answers. Oh yeah, they don’t trust themselves to actually follow through with that. And if we can stop them and talk them through that process and use almost that Socratic method of questioning them until they come to the realization and epiphany of, “I knew this all along and I got myself into the situation, and the only one that can get myself out that.” Health responsibility – all of those different aspects of, basically, enlightenment. I think that’s the most crucial component of information taking and charting and all of that, is trying to figure out how to get them to that point. Then, on top of that, it’s really fun to test your theories. Test what they feel. See, the basics of even just looking at their posture, you see that they’re listed way off to one side. Ask them where their weight distribution is that feel equal on both feet. You can start to learn whether you can trust them, or not. And where is the baseline and how do we get them to being accurate, once again, in their reading of their own body? I love different technology and all those fun tricks and tests and measurement tools but I think without that baseline of being in touch with your body, it almost does us a disservice – to an extent where we take the responsibility away from that connection, that innate consciousness. And we rely on technology, which is only good when wi-fi is up, right? We have to disconnect from the grid and reconnect with our own body.

Greg: Yeah. And getting people, like you say, getting them empowered and introspective so that they’re able to tune in instead of relying on you too because you’re not always going to be there for them, right?

Dustin: Nor do I don’t think any of us want to be. I think there’s no shortage of, you know, people that want to be healthier. And so, if we can teach as many people as we can to trust in themselves, we’re never going to be terribly slow in healthcare. I think there’s going to be an over-abundant need for more practitioners and assistants in our healthcare crisis. But getting back to those basics are fantastic. And then you have your patients come in and with accurate feedback of how they felt, how often they had their symptoms, because they’re in tune again. They aren’t distracted. And I look at the markers of how much less medication they need, how much more vitality and how active they are on those levels, far more than I. Even though, I use those other measurement tools far more than I trust, or put weight in those other measurement tools.

Greg: Are you using things like Oura Ring or, you know, test sleep and heart rate and those kinds of things? Or are you using technologies like genetic testing? To look at, you know, genetic predispositions?

Dustin: I love a whole bunch of different functional tests. I’m really blessed to have a few fantastic naturopaths, MDs, and chiropractors on the island that I work closely with to, hopefully, be able to get as much of that covered by insurance since I have strictly cash-based and don’t work with insurance at all. I work with a little network to be able to have as much of that covered and worked on as a team. I love genetic testing, I think it’s fantastic. I think that, again, we need to use common sense within it and use it as a blame-shifting like, “Ah that’s why.” You know, exercise – because my genes say I can’t – rather, use it as a little insight into how can we take that knowledge and apply it to our longevity and our health goals. How can we use it to give us information to prevent the catastrophic events from happening that you’re predisposed to, right? That’s where I love genetics and use that for nutritional recommendations, exercise recommendations, supplements, and things that might be able to offset some of their predispositions and things like that. I haven’t used Oura Ring. I’ve used a few other sleep apps and things like that, Sleep Cycle, and a few others that I’ve had some fun playing around with. But not using any of them on every patient or anything like that. Again, I kind of take that approach to what’s the most potent test or what’s our best bang for our buck. I do love a lot of the functional labs and the functional medicine components that are so widely used. I’m thankful for blood, urine, neurotransmitter testing, hormone testing, those types of things. And just using those a lot more. I use a lot of functional testing on a movement level. And so, a non-technologically measurable level is, you can watch the way someone walks. I feel very confident watching the way someone stands with their eyes open and eyes closed and I can tell you how you’re going to walk, run, jump, squat. I can tell you where you’re going to fall into your weaknesses, just based off of the muscle tension that you can see in a standing static posture. And so, I think that’s the baseline that I use with most people because of the financial ease of it, the speed in which that test is performed, the ability to retest so fast and easy. I use simple photos, love x-rays, love MRIs, I love all that. You know, more ideological stuff, radiological studies. But simple photos can tell you a dramatic amount. Slow motion video shows you so much and things like balance boards – I’m testing a few different ones right now – and I’m excited to, hopefully at the Symposium, have more strong recommendations with a whole bunch of case studies. I’ll be presenting on some of those findings, what’s working and what’s not working for me.

Greg: So, speaking of Symposium, I do want to mention to our listeners that Dustin will be speaking in November at the Pacific Symposium here in town, at the Catamaran Hotel. And his focus will be on pain and posture and functional medicine application. And we’re super excited to have you come out for that. And hopefully, we’ll get to surf together!

Dustin: I hope so!

Greg: Yeah, get Jack out in the water and go paddle out. It won’t be like Kauai but, you know, you have to rent a wetsuit.

Dustin: All good with me. I look at the surfers, the one out in the water having the most fun was the best surfer, as Duke would commonly say. Yeah, just being out there and sharing that experience of being in the ocean with all those awesome ions and natural gas – it is so therapeutic, so I cherish that. And so thankful for the opportunity to chat with you and look forward to, hopefully, seeing as many listeners as possible at the Symposium. I think it’s going to be a fantastic event this year.

Greg: Yeah, for sure. And to our listeners who are out there, please come up and introduce yourself to Dustin, he’s a wealth of information. And come check him out at the Symposium, for sure. And again, we’re gonna link to his website, get more information there on what he does and how he is taking his Chinese medicine doctoral degree just to another level and incorporated all of his wonderful training and interests. And, Dustin, it’s been such an honor to speak with you and meet you and I look forward to meeting you in person. But this has been so, so great. Thank you so much.

Dustin: Thank you Dr. Lane. And just a quick little teaser of some of the other things that I’m going to be introducing during my talk at Symposium, if you don’t mind?

Greg: Yeah, go for it.

Dustin: Something called the Breath Belt and how to use an apparatus to strength train your diaphragm, a muscle that nobody’s talking about. Strength training, neurologically releasing the psoas – activating that zone one within minutes. And so, I’ll be talking about that in its functional applications to everything – digestive. Why all the breath stuff that we talked about, some of the laser therapy work that we’re doing, and how to use specific types of lasers for relief – neurologically, musculoskeletal stuff, pain applications like cranial nerve activation, neurological-chemical changes, all kinds of fun stuff. And so there’s gonna be a whole bunch of some really easy functional testing – BrainSpan Labs for testing omega-3 index and cognitive health from a simple blood drop that is very applicable to Chinese medical practitioners and things that they could recommend their patients to do in office or in house without having to go to a lab. And so there’s going to be some great points and clinical pearls and easy to apply to your practice or your personal health.

Greg: That’s awesome! I can’t wait to get that belt on my diaphragm – there we go, stretch that diaphragm out!

Dustin: Yeah, that’s right! Well, thank you so much.

Greg: Yep, I appreciate your time and all the best until we see you here in November.

Dustin: Thank you, aloha!

Greg: Aloha, take it easy.