Greg: So our guest today is Jack Miller who is a licensed acupuncturist, has a master’s degree in education, and is the president of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine. And I am so glad to finally get you in the studio for this podcast, Jack. I first met you in 1990 when you interviewed me for acceptance into what then was called the Masters of Traditional Oriental Medicine degree and I remember being so impressed by you at that time and just being awestruck at the prospect ahead of me and the school and the future ahead. I had really no idea what was to come and the trajectory that my life was going to take. And, know it or not, you are a huge influence on me in those formative years as I was studying to be an acupuncturist. And flashboard 28 years now, down the road and and now, of course, you and I are friends, we’re colleagues. You are my mentor – one of them – and of course, I work for you now. And so, I’m just so happy to have you and have this time, you know, with you. And welcome to the podcast.

Jack: Thanks Greg, thanks for those kind words.

Greg: So give us a walk down memory lane, Jack. What was it like in the in the early days when when you were first interested in Chinese medicine? How’d you get started?

Jack: Well back in those days, we didn’t even have stainless steel. We just used stones as needles.

Greg: Beyond stones, wow. So we went back a couple thousand years.

Jack: Well, I first got interested in Chinese medicine, I was a natural cook, very involved in the movement – macrobiotic school. So I was really well aware of acupuncture but I didn’t know it was a licensed profession until about 1982-83 when Bill Helm, who’s a good friend of both of ours – mentioned to me – he was actually giving me a massage as a wedding gift – and I was telling him that Leanne and I were actually thinking about moving to Los Angeles to go to LACC, which was the chiropractic college at the time. But Leanne was really actually having no part of moving to LA. And so Bill said, “Well, you should check out the acupuncture school that I work at.” And, well, I didn’t really know that that was a real school, that you could do that. And so, it’s actually very fortuitous that he told me. At the time, the program was just a two-year program. I thought, “Oh, two years? I could hold my breath for two years, I could do it.” So I kind of made up my mind that I was going to do it before I really looked into all the final details of what the education was. So when I went to meet with Joe Lazaro, who was basically the president at the school at the time, and he told me it was three years. I had already made up my mind to do it and I always think back that if Dylan told me it was three years, I may have never done the training here. I might have said, “Oh, that’s just too much.” And who knows? I might have, I don’t know, moved to Los Angeles and go to the Guitar Institute of Technology and be a famous guitarist at this point. Actually, if you know my guitar playing, you’ll know I made the right choice.

Greg: But you’re still aspiring to be that guy?

Jack: I’m still aspiring, yes.

Greg: So, this was 1982?

Jack: Yeah, 1982-83. So I started school in ‘83, it was a three-year program. Graduated, must have been at the end of ‘85-‘86.

Greg: And this is CAC, right?

Jack: California Acupuncture College, which had three campuses at the time: San Diego, Santa Barbara, and Los Angeles. And they changed ownership right at that time, right after I had graduated and the new owners drove it into the ground as fast as you could drive a business into the ground. And so, Joe Lozano, Alex Tiberi, Anna David, and Rick Gold started Pacific College to have a place where the students who were stranded at CAC in San Diego could go to school.

Greg: And what happened?

Jack: There were already other schools in LA and Santa Barbara. It was the same thing Joann and John Hickey started the Santa Barbara College of Oriental Medicine and operated for many years. And it was maybe 10 years ago we absorbed the students from Santa Barbara College. We taught out their students when that school really became untenable. Small town Santa Barbara, tough place to do acupuncture school so, really those four started PCOM in San Diego in ‘87. Well, really incorporated at the very end of ‘86 and brought in the first class in ‘87 and ran the school with a colleague of mine from my class. Actually, as the main administrator for about a year or so and then they approached me to take over running the school. I was in practice at the time with Mark Kastner, we both started the Park Boulevard Acupuncture Clinic where Mark worked for many years after that. And I, you know, came to work at Pacific College so made me a partner shortly after starting here.

Greg: So ‘86 PCOM forms, formally CAC closes down. You, Joe Lazaro, Alex Tiberi, Anna Davidia, and Rick Gold are basically running the school, right?

Jack: Well, I’m basically running it, they’re doing the main teachings, as well as other key faculty from the early days. Charlene Penner, Rosenberg – who’s still was with us till not too long ago – Cliff, Laura, some of the early folks.

Greg: Yeah, I remember those days. And so, that was a full-time job and you still were working?

Jack: Yeah, just a bit. It was really the perfect job for me. I loved my time at CAC, I loved the curriculum, I loved being a student, I really loved everything about it. I liked studying, I liked the tests as kind of a challenge, you know, to see how well you did on your studies. Although, I must admit, I hated studying for the California acupuncture board, it was really stressful and I still resent it to this day, I think they should get rid of state boards. But other than that, I loved every bit of the curriculum. And when Anna approached me and Rick, we all got together as a board and they asked me if I really wanted to do the job. I was just, you know, this has my name all over it. I was just sure that other people would love the curriculum as much as I did too, and turns out I was right.

Greg: Yeah. And they must have recognized early on and you your ability to study for one, to synthesize information and to organize it in a way that could really help an organization grow because, I mean, that’s what I see in you on a day-to-day basis, for sure.

Jack: Yeah. I think, I mean, they definitely – I was a very good student, I think that was probably the first thing that got their attention. And then Mark and I really started the first really nice clinic, acupuncture clinic, here in San Diego. Until then, people were kind of working out of their house and things like that and we really put together a really nice operation there and I think they saw that I had a business and wanted me to help them run the school. In fact, they originally approached me and said, you know, you can do this part time and you can still do your practice. And I did, I guess it was probably for about a year or so, still kept patients but this job really became, you know, overwhelming – at least full time, that’s for sure.

Greg: Yeah, I’m sure you were thinking about it 24/7. How to make it viable and grow it, for sure. So in your – over 37 years, right, in this field – what have you seen as the major changes in Chinese medicine in America?

Jack: Well, certainly, just, overall has been the general acceptance, right? I mean, Chinese medicine is, I don’t know that I would call it entirely mainstream but it’s not. I mean, if it’s not, it’s awfully close, right? Certainly, the expansion in what people look to Chinese medicine for as patients. You know, back in the day, really it was mostly pain and that’s a large part of what we do but now with fertility, substance abuse, mental-emotional disorders, sports acupuncture, all the specialties, right? Digestive, et cetera. I think people do look at us as a complete medicine now and consider us for almost any kind of ailment and like any medicine, it’s not going to work for everything, you know, for everybody. But really, almost any condition can be treatable by Chinese medicine, for the right person. So I think that’s been a big part of it, certainly within education, that’s been very dramatic. When I graduated from CAC, I just earned a certificate and acupuncture wasn’t even a degree, right? And so, then once we got accredited in 1990 here at the San Diego campus and applied to the California bureau of post-secondary education for degree granting authority to offer the masters degree that you earned. And then, now more recently, the doctorates – that’s huge, I think it’s a big thing for our profession. I think it’ll open up doors that weren’t available to us, even at the masters level, and certainly not at the certificate level. And the training, I mean, my program was 1800 hours and at the time, it was state-of-the-art, right? I mean, other programs were like 1300 hours, right? So, you know, ours was kind of easy by our standards now today, an easy three-year program. Where now, our programs are four years and they’re killer and they’re like 30-32 almost, we had to cut them down from 35. Well, a lot more training in China, a lot more training in biomedicine. In fact, the biomedicine is probably the biggest improvement and something that we’re particularly proud of at Pacific College because we’re at the cutting edge of that. You know, we were never shy about saying this is what we think our patients need to see from us, this is what our students need to know, right? We were all acupuncturists, my partners and I, and so we knew what we were seeing in the clinic and we just needed particularly more biomedicine. You know, funny story, Bob Flaws wrote a book on gynecology, right? And so, Mark and I go, “We’ll specialize in gynecology for a while.” And so, women started showing up, it’s effective, right? I knew it was in that book. And the women knew a lot more about what was going on with them than I did, what cycle are you doing. I mean, compared to what students know now, I literally knew nothing, right? And so, right away, I was like, “Wow, we need to fix that. I can’t have our graduates going out there and shrugging their shoulders to their patients.” So, you know, that’s particularly satisfying now, to see our grads. I mean, they go into multidisciplinary clinics of all type and hospitals and they’re very well respected. They know what they need to know.

Greg: Yeah, for sure, that’s been huge. I’ve seen that, obviously, over the years, too. Well, the one thing you said was, you know, the integration aspect is part of mainstream. I always tell my students, “We’re sort of at our adolescence in our profession because we’re not fully mature yet.” Because we’re not in every hospital, we’re not in every clinic. But we’re getting there.

Jack: Yeah and the doctorate is, you know, the recent upgrade to the master’s degree, as well as the entry-level doctorate. There’s nine courses in that program that are entirely focused on teaching acupuncturists to integrate into the modern medical system, right? Whether that’s Evidence-Informed Practice, Advanced Integrative Diagnosis, Case Management, Practice-Based Learning – another hallmark of a professional – all those things. When the acupuncturists really embrace that, it makes them so much more confident about going into these multi-disciplinary environments, right?

Greg: For sure. So, it’s really incumbent upon us, I think. The point you’re getting at is to be bilingual, trilingual, if you will. Because, I don’t know what doctor you know that has studied Chinese medicine that’s talking about…

Jack: When in Rome. I mean, let’s face it. I mean, acupuncturists need to know western medicine, whether they use it or not. And it would be a mistake to think that knowing more about something else waters down your system, right? For one, you don’t need to adopt a biomedical diagnosis model just because you know about it, right? But you’ll know a lot more about what the patient’s going through, particularly if you know what their treatments are. You’ll know side effects, contraindications, and things like that. You’ll know how to talk to their providers, key points. You know, even just from a practical practice-building aspect, if you can talk to doctors, they’ll refer you patients. They have all the patients, let’s face it, right? I mean, they’re probably treating 100% of the patients in the country, you know, we’re getting some of their patients. So the more we interact with them, the more acupuncturists are going to be able to build their practices quickly.

Greg: Yeah. And we know that that’s an area, I think, in our practice that we need help with, as acupuncturists, is getting them comfortable building their practice. And these tools, like you say, are so vital for that.

Jack: Oh, yeah. I mean, the Healthcare Systems class, right? That’s in the entry-level doctorate, in the transitional doctorate now. You know, we often think of the health care system when we see it on the news or whatever. When it’s a political debate, we think of it as just one thing but it’s not. It’s all these different kinds of systems, right? There’s governmental agencies, non-governmental, there’s for-profits, non-profits, there’s charitable organizations, there’s clinics, there’s hospitals. All these different things, all with different expectations for someone who’s working within their system. And so, that class gives our graduates the knowledge so that when they go into that particular organization, what’s expected of them.

Greg: Yeah. I took that class, it was an excellent class because I didn’t really know what to expect. But, like you say, that class really did open my eyes. If you think about it, here in San Diego, the big ones – Sharp, or Scripps, or UCSD – each function sort of similarly but they’re so different. If you’re going to work in one, it’s going to be totally different than working in another.

Jack: Yeah. And you know – we’ll get to this probably a little bit later, talking about the Health and Human Performance degree that we’re rolling out – but in acupuncture, anybody who’s building their career, you gotta take some chances. You know, you’re asking me about starting Pacific College, right? I mean, you got to do those things when you’re young, right? I mean, you don’t have to. Look, you’re never too old, I shouldn’t actually advance that. You really can always learn more. But the time when you have the least risk is when you’re younger, right? So any acupuncturist, young acupuncturists, listen to this. You’re going to be afraid to do certain things, you know, make those phone calls, create those networks, but just do it anyway. The people you call are not going to yell at you, they won’t throw things at you, they won’t physically harm you, right? The worst that will happen is you’ll be embarrassed, right? You know how many times you’ve been embarrassed in your life? Let’s just add one more. I mean, I still go through those things now, right?

Greg: Yeah, make the call, get in the door.

Jack: Yeah, totally. You’ll be surprised how nice people can actually be.

Greg: Yeah. What’s your view of the future of Chinese medicine? What do you think, where are we going to be in 10 years?

Jack: I mean, you know, every time I’ve been asked that question. Over the last 30 years, I’ve always said, “Now is the best time to be entering this field,” and it’s always been true, it’s always just gotten better and better, right? And so, I mean, hey, it was just last year – give or take – American College of Physicians, in response to a brain crisis, said acupuncture and other physical medicines like ours should be the first line of defense for the treatment of pain, right? Hey, that’s cool, that’s huge. And any Joint Commission Hospital that’s accredited by the Joint Commission has to have a program for the non-pharmaceutical treatment of pain, right? So they’ve got to train their people about this. So that’s an opportunity for acupuncturists not only to get involved and treat patients, but to actually train other providers, right? We’re part of the solution. So, I mean, the future is very bright for anybody looking at this career, that’s for sure.

Greg: Yeah. Let’s switch gears a little bit and ask you about the Symposium.

Jack: It’s coming up.

Greg: No small feat. Coming up in October.

Jack: I think first day is Halloween, October 31st.

Greg: October 31st. And for our listeners who have not attended, it is like mecca for acupuncturists, it’s one of the largest symposiums in the world for Chinese medicine. And for those that have gone, you know what I’m talking about here. It’s just, it’s an opportunity to network, connect with your friends, with your peers, with your heroes in the medicine, with your instructors. How did that come about, Jack?

Jack: Yeah, that was actually pretty fun. I remember exactly when we were at Yoshino’s Restaurant at the bottom of Washington street, the five of us, and Joe was saying that he had scheduled a retreat with Ted Kaptchuk out in Julian. And so, you know me, I’m a beach guy, I’m like, “Okay, how do I get this out of the mountains, it sounds like a good time.” But yeah, I beat San Diego, right? So in about a year or so beforehand, there had been an acupuncture conference in San Francisco I had heard about that had some cool speakers. And so I suggested to my partners that, well, it’s just as much work to do something with a bunch of speakers as it would be to just do with Ted, you know? It was going to be plenty of work but somebody just said, “Yeah, that sounds great, let’s do that.” So, oh my God, the first Symposium had more speakers than any symposium ever, really it was. It was really big, we had a lot of people, I don’t know exactly how many, I could check. We still have the old brochures and stuff. But it was like, I just invited everybody that I could think of that had something to say in Chinese medicine. And it’s really rewarding that so many of them are still regular speakers.

Greg: Who are some of the first?

Jack: So like, Jake Fratkin, Misha Cohen, Kiiko Matsumoto, of course Ted Kaptchuk, Whit Reaves, Bill Helm, Giovanni Macciocia of course, who passed away a couple years ago, rest in peace. Alex, same thing. But yeah, it was great and you know, a lot of credit goes to the people I was working with. We had a part-time marketing person who suggested that we should have exhibitors, like, what did I know about putting on a conference? See what I’m saying about chances, right? You’ll get the help that you’ll need, I think. And so, she said yeah, I should have exhibitors, I’m like, “Wow, that’s great.” So we did that and have ever since. You know now, the exhibitors are in those spaces that are really in demand, we turn away people, everybody totally internally. Bunches of exhibitors. And they, you know, obviously, pay for that space and really help us keep the tuition reasonable, right? Because without them, it would literally be twice as expensive.

Greg: I mean, because the Catamaran charges us, what, seven bucks per cup of coffee in there?

Jack: It’s nine bucks. Again, people don’t realize, it’s the craziest thing. It’s not, “Oh dude, it’s for the tea and the coffee, hot water.”

Greg: Hot water, nine dollars.

Jack: Nine dollars plus tax, plus two. It’s, well, here’s the thing. In the hotel business’s defense, if they didn’t charge you for that, they just charge you for something else, right? So they give you all you want for free, right, now we charge you for these rooms. So you know, you’ve got to pay your bills. That’s what, you know, acupuncture has learned too, right? It’s like, we’ll want to do good by doing well. We’re going to do well by doing good, as the old saying goes. But, you know, you have to pay your bills. And your patients, actually, completely expect to pay for your services. In fact, you make them uncomfortable if you’re not clear about that, right?

Greg: Post your schedule.

Jack: Yeah, right. You don’t know if he didn’t want to talk about money. “Well, maybe he’s given to me for free because I’m a friend or something. Well, I’d really like to come back to see him but, geez, I don’t want to impose.” So, you know, and if acupuncturists are uncomfortable talking about that, you just have your receptionist or something do it.

Greg: Well, if you publish your fee schedule on your website and post it in your office, you don’t have to have it.

Jack: Everybody expects that.

Greg: It’s like, you go to a restaurant, you expect to pay for your food.

Jack: Absolutely, yeah, exactly, for sure. So one other thing I thought of about the Symposium, and that is – you know, it’s been going on now since ‘89 was the first one – there were many periods in the development of our profession. It’s better now but there are many periods where it was really fractured, pressured and very fractious. Contentious with the different opinions, different organizations, different feelings about how much, you know, transmission should embrace biomedicine, and a lot of things like that. And the thing that I really maintained at Symposium was it was free from the politics. Always got requests, let me talk about this, let me talk about that. You know, this physician wants to be advanced, then I said, “Look, it’s four days, it’s like Woodstock,” it’s peace and love, right? This is all just about the medicine. And so it’s something I’ve resisted over the years but I think, I hope people appreciated that. And again, I think we’re in a better time now, it seems. It feels more unified. Maybe I’m a little bit distant from some of the politics but it feels good in the profession now. So we’re a little more supportive of some of the kind of activities. But for a long time, it was now study acupuncture, Chinese medicine.

Greg: I think we still have work to do with the associations, obviously some state associations. I mean, I see so many things doing a fair job. But nationally, and other states are getting hammered by the onslaught of, you know, dry needling and scope. And so, what are your thoughts on that? That’s a tough one.

Jack: Yeah, it really is. In one sense, you know, imitation is the serious form of flattery, right? It’s like, PTs want to do acupuncture. Why? Because it’s great, it works, all right. So you know, there’s so many hats in this profession that it’s hard to respond. As someone who has a vested interest in having acupuncturists succeed, I certainly understand the perceived threat. But I also sometimes wonder if, you know, we’re afraid for nothing. Even if the PTs would advance our cause, in terms of third-party reimbursement, right? In other words, they’re getting compensated now for really doing acupuncture, call it whatever you want, but they’re doing acupuncture, in some form. Does that help us? We don’t know. No crystal ball, right? And then, I also put on the hat of just, you know, a citizen of the world, a member of the public, a potential patient. And say if someone can get the benefits of that by seeing a physical therapist who may have never gone to see an acupuncturist, you know, you’ve helped them. So you see it from all these different angles and, you know, I just kind of think acupuncturists should be careful and probably should resist those legal challenges from the PT profession when they can, as best they can. But also be cognizant of those other issues and, you know, try to make the best of what’s happening. And that suggests that we take the offensive and that is, PTs want to do some dry needling, then acupuncturists can do physical therapy techniques if they’re trained to do. I mean, they’re not difficult to learn in some cases. And so, why not? And I would say the same thing goes for chiropractic. If acupuncture schools want to teach chiropractic in a responsible way, right? We certainly have enough of the biomedical foundation so we’d be mostly teaching the technique, then it’s something that could be explored. Now, I’m not suggesting that we actually do that but it’s something that people in different stages of their career or different stages of the politics of medicine and regulation can consider. You know, I always think of Dr. Michael Smith – another one of our pioneers who’s passed away recently – he was an MD and advanced the acupuncture techniques for substance abuse, right? Very simple, four or five points in both ears, NADA protocol. And that got us accepted in so many states where we may not have been otherwise, right? Where the regulators and the criminal justice system was so desperate for anything that could address substance abuse because substance abuse and crime are essentially the same. One issue that they said, “If that works, we’ll give it a try.” And then it worked really well, to where we talk about what’s mainstream acupuncture is mainstream in substance abuse, right? So when the regulator said, “Well, acupuncture works so great for that,” now here’s these acupuncturists who want to have a broader scope of practice and want to, you know, do full Chinese medicine. Let’s let them do it. So, you know, sometimes you give a little and you get more, right? So the people that were doing the NADA protocol were a substance abuse therapist. They had to be in a approved facility, often treating court mandated patients and yet, you know, worked out really well for acupuncture. It was actually an area that I was really disappointed in in California. Now this goes back maybe 10 years, where there was a proposed legislation to allow detox specialists to do the five-point needle technique for substance abuse, again, in an approved substance abuse facility overseen by acupuncturists, only being done by trained therapists. Acupuncturists were basically going to get paid for watching, supervising, and signing their name. But the acupuncture community was afraid that somehow that would leak over and next you know, these people that were doing substance abuse would be doing who knows what – weight loss, whatever. And so, they resisted that. I mean, again, who knows? No crystal ball. And 2020’s hindsight. But you know, to me, that seemed like a great opportunity for acupuncturists to have a very positive impact and to expand our earning potential beyond just doing acupuncture, right? I could just sign my name, I can make a living. So who knows? Maybe that’ll come around again. But I don’t think acupuncturists need to be worried about that kind of thing because one, the trauma required to be a very good acupuncturist and a particularly very good herbalist is substantial, vast. And so, the guy or gal that’s a detox specialist who’s really a trained substance abuse therapist, who does a shorter course and, you know, in the hygiene and the kneeling technique for doing ear, sure. I don’t think they’re our competition right now. They’re not going to be the fertility specialists, you know, the sports medicine acupuncturists. They’re not going to be treating the San Diego Padres, who’s got a blown shoulder, right? So yeah, but that’s just me.

Greg: I think, no I’m right with you there. I think that there’s no harm, no foul in having even, you know, strata of technicians like that are doing even pain. I mean, even if you’re in a pain clinic over, you know, with a pain group and just having pain protocols, I think there’s that. But I think one state, maybe it’s Nevada, recently passed that training technicians for acupuncture for the NADA protocol. I think that just happened.

Jack: Good for them. But I’m not sure. To that, you know, you bring up another idea and that is acupuncture assistance. Like, every busy acupuncturist uses, we need help. Somebody to help them technically, that person’s not even supposed to take out needles. So why isn’t there an acupuncture technician certification track? Where, maybe it’s massage practitioners or even, you know, lay people that do certain amount of training. I don’t know how much it is, I haven’t thought about a curriculum like that in a while. But maybe it’s a year long and then they become an acupuncture assistant. It’s a nice job and it’s a stepping stone to being in acupunctures themselves, right? And it makes what most acupuncturists are doing anyway, now legal. So I think it’s another opportunity.

Greg: Yeah, totally. As this, you know, profession really goes towards maturation, I think these types of things are going to have to appear before the board for consideration, for sure.

Jack: It’s in most other professions, you know? Look at it, right? Medicine certainly, it’s stratified all over the place. Nursing is stratified. And so, why not? Yeah, that’s a possible thing in the future.

Greg: Yeah, I think. Right now, we have a good opportunity with the California Acupuncture Board. When I was up there, you know, when I just went up there, they seemed really lucid.

Jack: And that’s a good thing in regulators, yeah.

Greg: Yeah. Anyway, I don’t want to go down that road too far. So, tell us about the expansion east. And, you know, what year did New York open? What year in Chicago opened? What were you thinking about? One wasn’t enough, I got it, you got to open three campuses.

Jack: Yeah. Well, those were – again, going back to get do it while you’re young – I remember so clearly, particularly in Chicago, walking around there and going, “What am I doing?” I felt really alone, you know? It was like, “Wow, this is really my baby” to, you know, make or break. New York, it was similar. But, you know, being from the area and having just such a tremendous affinity for New York, I just love the city, I felt more at home. And it just, you know, there’s certain things when you as a creative person – it’s like a chef, you’re looking at the food and you can kind of taste how it’s going to be when it’s put together, right? And you go, “Okay, this is going to work, this is really going to be a good dish.” And it was just that same feeling that I had particularly about starting this job in San Diego. I just knew, I could just taste the potential of the profession, right? And so, same thing in New York. Dr. Art Stum his lovely wife came to see me in San Diego and said, you know, New York just passed a law allowing acupuncture schools. And I kind of looked at it and I saw that there was no school in Manhattan, there was no school in New York. There was Tri-State campus but they were in Connecticut and I just saw they hadn’t really captured the market right now. And Mark Seem, he had his own and still does his own ideas about acupuncture and he was the president of the Tri-State – very talented acupuncturist, unique style kind of based on trigger points and Japanese style and his own, what he calls American style. And a lot to Mark, you know, he was there, right? And he got things going. But I really felt like this is Manhattan, you know, center of the universe, right? Needed a school like ours – comprehensive training, no compromises in terms of the curriculum, as far as we could do it at that time. And so, yeah, that’s what we did.

Greg: And that was it.

Jack: And that was in 1993. And we were fully approved and it took a while. And it was at least a year and a half of waiting, just for getting the place together – hiring key employees, getting approval from the state curriculum, faculty. I mean, God bless them. Kevin Regal, who I met through the Council of Colleges, became a very good friend. Both he and Marnie and I were able to lure Kevin away from ACTCM in San Francisco to be the campus director. And Kevin’s a brilliant guy, both he and Marnie are really strong academics and really smart. And Kevin has great integrity and high standards and so he, thank God, he really was able to earn the respect of the acupuncture community there – the team, potential teachers. And so, we were able to attract good faculty and so we started the first semester. I had met Mr. Ohashi from the Ohashi Institute of shiatsu and we forget who actually introduced us but he let us use his space for the first semester, and very grateful to him for that. And then, we went looking for our own space and found a great spot in the Flatiron district, 21st and Broadway. And I mean, our timing for real estate was impeccable, and that was early ‘90s, right? New York was still funky, you know, Giuliani was just kind of starting to clean things up. We looked at some places down on 7th Avenue and 14th street that were like, oh my God, we go into the the basements of these buildings, just really something.

Greg: Once the rats ran away.

Jack: Yeah. We found this place, was a former school, like a medical technician or something like that so it was built out as a school. And so, the market was just flat on its back and you got a pretty good deal. And so, then the markets just started to improve because they’re like, the city got hipper and cooler and safer. And the area, Flatiron, got really hip and that lease was up in 2003 but going up into that was like ‘98-‘99, right? Was like “dot-com” and that was a Silicon Valley in New York and the rents were just going sky high, right? And then the one good thing about the dot-com bust, rents dropped down when our tenure lease was up so we were able to re-up again until 2013. By then, rents were again back to astronomical and we couldn’t afford to stay in the Flatiron district, too hip for us. So now, we move downtown to the Financial

district and now downtown is like totally cool now – a lot more residential, cool stores and shops, and restaurants moving in. So Pacific College is taking credit for the rejuvenation of those two neighborhoods.

Greg: New York, in general.

Jack: Yeah, just New York, in general. We’re very modest. I love the city, I love it. I mean, you know, Chicago – same kind of thing.

Greg: Dynamic city.

Jack: And the people, you know, New Yorkers get a wrap for not being nice. But New Yorkers are super friendly, I mean, New Yorkers are great people. But Chicago, oh my God, they’re friendlier than anybody I’ve ever met. They’re just the greatest and great food, it’s a wonderful city too. And so, we’ve been there since 2000. It was kind of similar thing, you know, there was a school there but they were kind of out of the city. And we came in there again with no compromise, curriculum, and attract the quality students who really want to study complete medicine. You know, do the pre-reqs and earn their degree.

Greg: So now, here we are, almost end of 2019. Three campuses, 30 some odd years in. We’ve got, how many students do we have?

Jack: Well, over 1500. Online, it’s closer to 2000.

Greg: Yeah. We’ve expanded from just Chinese medicine to now nursing. In a minute, we’re going to talk here a little bit about another program that’s near and dear to both of our hearts. I wanted to ask you about, sort of, a key event in the college’s trajectory and that is, you know, the original partners, they were retiring. Alex wanted to, you know, go do his thing in North Carolina, and Anna was looking at retirement, and Rick had his other projects going on, and you had an opportunity to come up with Quad Partners. So how’d that go?

Jack: Quad Partners are the greatest bunch of guys. Yeah, it’s exactly like you said. It was probably about 2006 where I started to realize that I was going to need more support to ensure that the school continued to thrive, right? Like you said, Alex, those guys were key teachers for such a long time and then they weren’t teaching anymore. Alex was out of town and then also the regulatory environment in education was changing, becoming even more technical. I knew that we were going to need to diversify our programs and the levels of our programs, even the existing programs, which was going to mean a different kind of accreditation, right? And then other aspects of education were becoming more sophisticated. And so, we just thought, you know, we need to bring in more sophisticated partners, right? And we’re very lucky to have met Quad Partners, I’m really proud to call my friends. I mean Dan Neuwirth, Russ Dritz, Lincoln Frank, Basil Katsamakis. Nicest guys you’re going to want to meet. Dan and Russ and I, those guys were in my jam band in New York. Russ, he’s a quintessential New Yorker but writes country music. Dan is a good surfer, you’d really like him, all around water athlete. You know, super nice guys. People say, “Oh, private equity hedge funds,” like as if I don’t know. Somehow these guys all, you know, have horns and a tail, right? They’re just people like everybody else. And Quad, in particular, is entirely focused on education. They really love education and so all their investments are in education. And so they were very helpful to us. They’ve never interfered in any shape in the mission of Pacific College. They’ve never had one thing to say about, you know, what’s Chinese medicine, why do this or that. I mean, they know what we do, obviously, but they don’t direct the school at all. And you know, they occasionally are like, “What’s new?” And so, you know, it’s been an evolution with them, it’s been 11 years now. And in the first, really, five or six years was a slow development because we right away started to seek WASC accreditation, right? And once you go into the initial WASC, which is regional accreditation, once you go into their process for initial accreditation, they kind of expect you to stay the same. They don’t want to see a lot of growth, a lot of new programs while you’re in that phase, right? So we couldn’t really do much in terms of developing new programs. But since the WASC accreditation, we’ve done the RN to BSN program, we did the transitional doctorate, entry-level doctorate – both online and on ground – and now the medical cannabis and the MS in Health and Human Performance. So those guys have been great. You know, for anybody that cares about our partners, they could call them up and see what they, see what they think. I mean, great guys.

Greg: And so, I don’t want to leave out Stacy. And when did you bring Stacy Gomes into the mix? I know Stacy’s just an incredible academic, Vice President of Academic Affairs here.

Jack: Well, let me jump back even first before that, since we got kind of a little history of Pacific, and bring up Elaine please. I mean, Elaine has – she’s retired, which I feel very proud that she was able to retire from this profession, from this school – but you know, key person here, couldn’t have done it without her. She was the registrar, I think she was everything when I came, right? She started, you know, it was just her and I and receptionist, and then we’re just dividing everything up. And then we’re always going, “You don’t want to do that, I’ll do it,” and then she just goes, just the greatest. Like my wife, in the end goes, “Elaine’s a saint,” and I’m not arguing with her, right? So she’s the greatest and I wish her all the best. So Stacy and I were classmates out at San Diego State in the Master’s Degree in Educational Technology and I met her there. And, you know, really didn’t get to know her very well, was impressed by her personality. But we’d only had one class together or saw her around and then she just showed up one day here at Pacific College and said, “Today, I want to work for you guys. What do you do?” And I think at the time, I don’t know if it was just timing or I made the space, but I was like, “You know, I need someone like you as academic dean, someone who can really work with me on accreditation stuff, all the technicalities, the paperwork, the rules, regulations.” I can’t remember if we had somebody move aside or into something else but anyway, and honestly to her credit, she took some flack because she’s kind of the first non-acupuncturist that had a kind of key academic role, right? But I’m like looking around, I got subject matter experts everywhere, I don’t need another acupuncturist. I need an educator, someone who knows about education and she lives, breathes, eats education. I had done a lot of research and stuff. And she reminded me just the other day, it’s been 22 years, I wouldn’t have guessed that. You know, time goes by so fast. But yeah, she’s great. I mean, she’s really great. And right now, she’s up to elbows in it, to our reaffirmation of our regional accreditation process. So they’re going to be showing up here next week.

Greg: We’ll be ready.

Jack: We’ll be ready.

Greg: Yeah. So speaking of time and time passing quickly, and in a blink of an eye, it was literally three years ago that I was clinic director at the time and you came into my office and were explaining to me something about your interest in peak performance. And you’re really jazzed and I remember this clear as day, you and I talking about what you were reading and all the books. And for those of our listeners who know you or those that don’t, you’re an insatiable reader and you’re always on a quest for knowledge and committed to lifelong learning. And that’s just part of who you are. Like, this passion in you, for what you were thinking about. And I wonder if you remember that day or that conversation? And what was the genesis of your interest in peak performance?

Jack: Really remember clearly. And the peak performance, it’s one of those things, again, like the chef. Where you’re going, you see a concept and it resonates, right? And it’s kind of one of the ways you can know or it’s at least, it’s some evidence that maybe you’re on the right track for something. You don’t want to do everything by intuition, sure, I’m not advocating that at all. You got to do your homework, right? But if you start to, if it feels good, and it’s kind of toward a life affirming idea, you know you might be onto something. So I discovered Tim Ferriss, right, and his podcast and his book.

Greg: Tribe Of Mentors and The 4-Hour Workweek?

Jack: Not the 4-Hour. He’s got another kind of Tribe Of something book, so it’s all like well-known people and their advice, right? And I think the reason why it resonated with me is that, you know, I am an educator at heart. I really like the field and I like to learn different things. And here was this guy going, “Here are all these cool ways that you can be better at whatever it is that you want to do.” So in that book, there’s advice about learning more, and run faster, jump higher, lose weight, gain weight, get ahead in business, all this kind of cool stuff. And it wasn’t just, kind of, the typical cliches that you get from every kind of pop psych book that’s out or, you know, the latest business book. There’s people that really had done it right, all very accomplished in their field. I was like, “Wouldn’t it be cool to do a curriculum where I started, actually, think of it based on chakras?” And I kind of followed the system where shock was also related to, kind of, human domains. So it’s like, you could have courses that kind of reflected each of those subjects. So basically, spirituality, creativity, athleticism, your own immunology, sexuality, digestion, all those various aspects of our body and our human life experience in a curriculum. I thought that would be super interesting. I mean, no doubt it would be, right? But then, I went, “Oh, well, wait a minute. It’s got to be a career.” So I discovered the coaching: health coaching, life coaching, wellness coaching. And I thought that that would be a very good vehicle for this kind of subject matter, right? And so, I mean, that’s what we’ve been developing over three years. It’s taken a long time because, well, the subject matter is vast. And so deciding what kind of prerequisites someone should have coming into it, who’s it going to be for, what’s this coaching thing, right? I mean, I didn’t really know much about coaching. I’d heard about it but it’s like, it took me a while to wrap my head around it. Like, what do you need coaching for? I was kind of, I never did that. So, I mean, I certainly get it in the athletic environment and I’ve heard about life coaching and business coaching but I never experienced it. I guess, this is kind of the main thing for me, right? So it took me a while to get this is something of value for career or profession. But the more I learned about it, I saw they could use more content, for sure. So you have the structure of coaching and it’s kind of non-denominational, right? It’s sort of like, the coach can be a coach of anything and can be effective because of the way they interact with their clients. But I also saw, and we’ve seen this as we’ve talked to more coaches, that there’s sort of a bleed over into different areas. And so, as they give their clients information – let’s say about diet or workout regime – then in that way, they become more of a consultant or an educator, right? Or maybe they’re even modeling those behaviors and then they become even more, maybe, like a mentor. So I saw that if you had a coach that really had a lot more information about nutrition, about performance, psychology, performance, physiology, and then they also had the skills that a graduate student would have of being able to access current literature. And then through those subjects, be knowledgeable enough to read the literature because if you used to just pick up a journal, some of that stuff can be pretty dense, you know? You need a little bit of training to really access it. Then I thought that we had a program there, and I think we do. I mean, i’m just super excited about all the potential, right, that there is for having a positive effect on clients’ lives and on the students’ lives, as well. Because the whole program is going to be a journey of self-discovery, right? You can’t be a coach and kind of be fake. You got to know your own strengths, your own weaknesses. Maybe it would help if you failed a few times, it’s something or other, right? And then you kind of go, “Okay, I’ve got some empathy from what my clients are going through,” and then, you know, tie that in with their own particular specialty interests. Right now, we have students in the program that are elite athletes so you can see, maybe with all this skill and knowledge and then their experience in the field, might be great athletic coaches. Other people that have more business interests, it can relate to a business person. So it’s super exciting. I mean, I want to invite different kinds of trainers into the program because I think there’s a lot of people who are coaches or trainers who maybe don’t get kind of recognition as that, particularly in this field of coaching. When you think about it, everybody’s going to know famous coaches, you know? Vince Lombardi or whatever, right? But, hey, what about San Diego? Here on the police force, who trains those guys? I mean, if I’m a cop, those guys have to be really centered, right? You think about, like, CHP, he pulls you over on the highway, he doesn’t know from minute to minute what he’s walking into, right? How does he keep his head on straight? And then, how do you deal with John Q. Public? So, I mean, I think like that. Or, we have the Seal team training right here at Coronado and we talk about training, right? I mean, that’s as crazy as it gets. Guys like that come in and talk to our students, super interesting.

Greg: Yeah. And our students are, I mean, this first group of students is really amazing. I mean, we have – like you said – professional athletes, lifelong athletes, an acupuncturist works for one of the professional football teams in America here.

Jack: A very elite group to form our kind of inaugural cohort, really hand selected to help us develop the program, right? Because as you’ll remember, one of the things that we thought we could also bring to the field of coaching was the integration of the wisdom of Chinese medicine. And so, I mean, Chinese medicine is the longest, probably the foremost system of wellness, longevity, and performance, right? I mean, that’s been its focus for so long, it’s a value in Chinese culture to live a long time right. So to do that, you have to be healthy. So we thought with that, as well as the understanding that Chinese diagnosis can bring, there are systems of personality as well as physical analysis that can sort of type a person. And so by having a sense of what kind of person your client is, you can give them better advice, right? And it’s pretty simply understood. I mean, somebody’s very sensitive, you have to approach them much differently than somebody that’s hypertensive and, you know, type “triple A.” And Chinese medicine can refine even that kind of insight into a person’s personality and physicality as well, right? And that’s super important when you’re talking to them about their wellness.

Greg: Absolutely. You know, with that, you mentioned Chinese medicine being one of the oldest approaches to what we’re seeing now. And what actually is, you know, in a way, being termed “biohacking.” So what are your thoughts on the biohacking and how that’s emerging in healthcare? People are kind of gravitating towards that.

Jack: Yeah. I mean, it’s super interesting, right? It’s got a lot of buzz and pizzazz.

Greg: Just the name, right?

Jack: Yeah. I mean, I’m like the terminator, right? And I’m a guinea pig, you know? I’m my own controlled study. I think there’s a lot to be learned from that but I – certainly as a medical professional, as well as an educator – think that there’s a lot to be cautious about, for sure. And so that, I think, it’s another reason why I like this Health And Human Performance program at the graduate level, so that everyone will take an evidence-informed approach to anything that really comes out of their mouth, right? And so, when someone comes to you and they want to talk to you about biometrics, let’s say – I mean, those are pretty benign – but if they also want to talk to you about microdosing psychedelics, it’s completely different. Getting a bit hairy. So you want to know what exactly they mean, right? What do you mean by microdosing?

Greg: What is the substance and how much is it?

Jack: Exactly. And here’s the evidence, you know? So it could depend on the person’s age, their background. I mean, someone who’s 21 that wanted to do that, you might try to move them in another direction, right? That’s a very tenuous time for people as they’re really transferring from adolescence to adulthood when, you know, mental illness can officialize. And so, you combine that with psychedelics, that might not be advised, right? So, I mean, these are just examples. But I’m not an expert in biohacking, I’m fascinated by the concept, I admire and I’m kind of amazed by some of the people who are more representative of that movement and the activities and experiments that they’ll run on themselves. Pretty cool, right? And I think that if they can really quantify and document their results, again, it gives us a clue to what needs further study. And so, guys like Ben Greenfield and David Asprey come to mind. I mean, super interesting guys, right? And Paul Chek, you know, who’s right here in San Diego. I mean, talk about a real master of wellness, and physiology, kinesiology. Talk about well-read, his library is very impressive and it’s not for show. And really someone who’s completely committed to his craft, you know, he’s been on our podcast before. Real interesting.

Greg: And we consulted with him with that development, I think?

Jack: Yeah, for sure, absolutely. I mean, it’s Paul Chek, Matt Walden, Amy Albright, who’s associated with Asprey’s work. You know, those guys were really helpful. Matt, who’s a senior instructor with Paul Chek and CHEK Institute, was very helpful in our physiology class. We were definitely looking for some direction there. I mean, the challenge in the program is that any of the topics that we’re going to engage in can be entire programs themselves. You can go all the way from a bachelor’s degree to PhD in nutrition, physiology, and psychology, and research. I mean, in Chinese medicine. So all those are their own specialties. And so, to have someone who can translate between the disciplines and coach can be a real valuable member of the team, right? So, again, back to us. Say an athletic example – if you’ve got an athlete who may have a specialist in nutrition, they’ve got their exercise physiologist, they’ve got even a psychologist. You can, as the coach, coordinate those specialists, right? And make sure that they’re – just like in medicine – that, you know, you don’t have things that are conflicting with one another.

Greg: Absolutely. What is the direction you see for HHP, the coaches coming out of our master’s program? Where do you see them working and having the greatest impact in society?

Jack: Well, the cool thing about it is that, while it’s a health coach certificate along with the master’s degree, if someone doesn’t want to be a coach, the education that they’ll get will give them broader opportunities. And so, just as a health educator, you can work as a health journalist, you could work as a consultant in a nutritional products company, you could work in marketing. You’re going to gain a greater understanding of the entire field. So you’ll be valuable to marketing, you may do product development, and then there’s also obviously the coaching. So there’s health coaching, wellness coaching, life coaching, there’s the – what you mentioned – executive coaching, super interesting. There’s even more of like a team approach, right? Or a group approach to coaching, so going into corporations and having a defined program for their employees. Maybe it’s heart healthiness, help heart health or diabetes control, weight control, substance habit control, stop smoking, drink less, whatever their particular concerns are. Maybe you have those as a series but the potential for businesses to use coaches in their human relations departments is really big. I mean, you know, people in any business are the biggest resources, right? Machines are, you know, that’s easy to replace. People, you’ve got so much training in them, you want to keep your people. So turnover in business is a big problem, is a big expense. And not even if it’s turnover, even if it’s absenteeism, right? Low back pain causes business – I used to know the numbers when I was studying wellness programs – low back pain alone, millions of dollars a year. Just help somebody with their posture, maybe give them an app that they can use that gets them out of their seat every 25 minutes or whatever, right? So all these things that coaches can give to businesses, you know, just lead to higher profits, more productivity for everybody, really.

Greg: Benefiting society at large.

Jack: Absolutely.

Greg: So I want to ask you some general questions about how, you know, what do you do for yourself. So like, what do you because you’re really healthy. I mean, I know you’re a healthy guy, you’re so good. You surf, you drive, you race. You’ve got a lot of, you know, you enjoy your life with your beautiful wife, you guys travel a lot. You have a lot of interests. So what are you reading right now? What are you listening to? You know, what sort of things you do?

Jack: You know, I’m actually a big magazine reader so Scientific American forwards stuff that I can digest pretty quickly. But also have been reading a lot of books, you know, pertaining to the Health and Human Performance Program over the last few years, right?

Greg: So for those of you who don’t know Jack, he’s always got about six books on his desk.

Jack: It’s all just to show, I’ve never opened any of them. But really, it’s a good question because I was just thinking about doing a a little email to our students because I’ve read a few books that I thought would be really relevant to them, just being more effective students. So, okay, one book is called Endure by Alex Hutchinson and Alex goes into every aspect of endurance, and every technique to improve endurance, and he was a long distance runner. All these are, you know, available on Amazon. And so, that book gave a lot of information, much of it was directed at athletes. But what he kind of summarized, saying if I could only do one thing of these endurance tips, somebody asked me, “What would you do?” And he said positive self-talk was the most effective, had the most powerful effect on performance, right? And so he was looking at nutrition, hydration, vitamins, all different kinds of training techniques. And he was like, you know, you can do it. That’s it, right? So for students, you can just see it. I mean, our acupuncture program is a four-year program, even the HHP master’s is going to be two years for most people. There’s going to be a time where you’re going, “Why’d I do this?” Right?

Greg: I don’t always get up with the same level of enthusiasm.

Jack: Exactly. If only, right,so that you can do it. The other one was Spark and that one is by Dr. John Ratey. And that one, it’s a pretty simple book, it’s all about exercise and it’s positive effect on everything. And I thought, John got a pretty good deal in this book because the whole thing could have been summarized as exercise is good for everything. So now you don’t need to read the book, but it’s absolutely a very nice book, well-written and good research. And all these books are fantastic bibliographies, right? So you go to the book and you want to do more research, you can spend your next life just going through the bibliographies of just these couple books. So that’s a good one. But in the beginning of his book, he shares a study where they had kids from a low-performing high school run around the track – I think they did like a mile – but anyway, they had to get their heart rates up and then before class, there’s scores when they went from the bottom to the top, right? It’s like, you can see the only thing they changed, so that was it. And so, and all the evidence that he showed was if you do some exercise before you study, you’re going to get more out of your study. So for our students, park further away, hike up the hill, and move your team. And the other one is Distracted Mind and the next two books – in fact, I just saw both these guys speak – The Distracted Mind is Dr. Adam Gazzaley, neuroscientist at UCSF, I think. And his whole book is pretty dense and it’s, you know, well written but it’s not a beach read. But Dr. Gazzaley is a super interesting guy, very good speaker, he’s got tons of YouTubes. And I mostly bring the same message, well, two messages is involved in one other thing I’ll talk about. But this one is The Distracted Mind and it’s basically, again, can be summarized as “You think you’re doing well at multitasking, you’re not,” right? And so as a student, put the phone away, don’t turn the computer off, turn the TV off and study. You’d be better off studying for a half hour than an hour of, you know, distracted. So that’s another good one for students to know. The last one is Why We Sleep by Matt Walker and that one’s real popular, easy to read, interesting because everybody’s interested in sleep.

Greg: And then nobody gets enough.

Jack: I mean, it’s so great because you used to think, “Oh, I can’t be a great CEO, I can’t be great, I’m sleeping too much.” And now he’s like, “Mate, sleep.” Thank God, thank you Matt, right?

Greg: But the appropriate night?

Jack: He’s not suggesting you sleep 12 hours, no. He actually did point out towards the end of the book, a sort of diminishing return above nine hours. I’m now going to currently study that, I’ll try some 10 hours and see if I get worse or not. But yeah, really good speaker. Both he and Dr Gazzaley did a tag-team thing at a club that I belong to up in Napa Valley. But the thing that I didn’t like about the message that he had, and the thing that I will be warning students about, not only sleep enough but alcohol disturbs the quality of sleep that you need to learn. And, you know, I don’t drink during the week but I like a glass or two on Friday, Saturday, right? And so, unfortunately, the effects were persistent. Like, they had people study a bunch and then they test and they had people drink a little bit midweek and then had people not drink and they tested those groups and the drinkers did a lot worse. And so they tested them at the end of the week, right? So it wasn’t like they were drunk before they took the test, they had like three days of not drinking but the alcohol effects were persistent. And so, it’s disturbing – I have to go back and double check the book – I think it’s disturbing both deep sleep and REM, where your hippocampus is delivering the information to your prefrontal cortex, where it gets stored for a longer time. And so, unfortunately if you want to be the best student possible, limit your alcohol. In fact, you’d probably want to, you know, limit it as much as possible. Say, to the weekend. So while you’re studying during the week – what you’re studying on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday – is being absorbed on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So anyway, I don’t want to belabor it.

Greg: In that book, did he talk about THC consumption?

Jack: You know, it’s interesting. He doesn’t but I asked him about that. I asked him about CBD at the lecture that I went to and he said the THC is much like alcohol, it’s effects on the hippocampus. He didn’t relate it to learning, although he has it in his book about the alcohol. When I asked him, he just addressed its effect on sleep, that it lowers the quality of your sleep. CBD, he actually said there was some promising evidence but there needed to be more research. So the other good one is very interesting and that is, I can’t remember her name, but Reality Is Broken is the name of the book. Oh yeah, and that’s McGonigal, forget her first name.

Greg: That’s about the gamification?

Jack: That’s about gaming, yeah. And, you know, video games now get so much bad press, right? It gets blame for everything, from mass shootings to people wasting their time. But her evidence is really quite the contrary, that even the violent games build a sense of community.

Greg: Like vigilantes.

Jack: Like, they tend to help each other, right? So I’m playing and I know how to get through this maze, whatever, so I help you. And so, that builds that kind of connection. And then there’s also the, you know, attention span and all that. The one thing she did say though, it was that playing violent video games against pure strangers was negative, that it develops kind of insensitivity and a mocking carelessness towards playing, even with your friends. So that was kind of interesting, I thought it was interesting. And it didn’t have much to do with – you know, I was reading all the other ones to our students – that one maybe not so much, other than maybe morale. It’s a brilliant camaraderie. And of course, you know, she had a lot of really specific games and most of them were not the shoot ‘em up stuff. But, again, it’s always interesting to find someone with a little bit different take on popular information, or popular myth even, and say, “Hey, she’s a PhD, she’s doing her work, she has really no particular skin in the game, she’s not selling the games.” So I knew I was going with that. It was back to Dr. Gazzaley and his second theme is that he actually does develop the video games, specifically to enhance cognitive abilities, particularly in the senior citizens.

Greg: Oh, that’s good.

Jack: Yeah. And instead of them just becoming popular games, they’re subjecting them to FDA trial so that they can actually prescribe the games. So that’s pretty cool. And they said when they had their subjects, they gave them their iPads or whatever to play the games, they didn’t want to give them back. So I see that now. You know, I have an elderly father, although he would object to that term, he’s still studying, right?

Greg: He’s ninety?

Jack: Yeah, he’s doing great. And my dad is the nicest guy you ever want to meet. But you know, that kind of help would be so great. So anyway, if you feel like playing some video games after you studied, go ahead, go for it.

Greg: Yeah. I want to ask you about like, if you could think about some times when you were personally faced with adversity? You know, maybe it was developing the college? Maybe it was doing the expansion? How did you respond to that?

Jack: Yeah. Well, you know, unless you have a business that has no customers and no employees, which doesn’t exist, you’re going to always have challenges, right?

Greg: So, do you have sort of a compass? Like, a north star? Or, how do you tether yourself to deal with adversities or challenges?

Jack: You know, I think it’s –

Greg: Pretty broad question.

Jack: Yeah. You know, the personal development stuff that people refer to now – personal growth, meditation, mindfulness – is something that’s been a habit in my life for a long time, right? I mean, I started doing yoga in my teens, was introduced to macrobiotics in my 20s at Eureka Institute which is a meditation school at the same time. So it’s been 40 years of that kind of, you know, habit. And I mean, I’m the last person in the world that you would say, “Oh, he’s like a saint.” I don’t demonstrate that kind of demeanor. But there’s a certain part I feel that only kind of the external effect only goes so deep, you know? So there’s a kind of detachment. Not a detachment so you don’t say, “I don’t care,” but “I know that it’s going to be okay,” right? So when the student says – you know, students complain about things – it’s like, you just kind of go, it’s just a problem to be solved. Something to listen, to try not to take it personally. You know, for the most part, you do right. You kind of like, doesn’t mean that somebody just goes home. But it’s like, it only goes down so deep. I think that’s part of the meditation, you know? It’s like, well, you know, you’re a tai chi expert. I mean, you know that center right there. You don’t get thrown off that as easily as if you’re just kind of, if you’re well. If your center’s out in other people, like if i’m only doing it to me so that you’ll think I’m cool or I think it’s not my internal motivation is personal right.

Greg: Yeah. I think that’s what I’m getting at. I feel, I sense in you that you have a compass that’s pointed, the north star as an analogy, but that’s sort of your trajectory. It’s always of integrity. So, you know, what I observe from you is when things are challenging or maybe quote-unquote “adverse situations,” you seem to always navigate without getting thrown.

Jack: Well, I appreciate you saying that and I’m glad I’m keeping up with good for someone. I mean, you know, there’s those habits and that’s why I really do encourage people to look at some of these old culture wisdoms, right? And I really do adopt, even though my original introduction was yoga, and that’s kind of otherworldly. The Hindu philosophies tend to be more mystical, right?

Greg: Well, they were more religious, too.

Jack: Certainly, right. I mean, really my background is more of a Chinese perspective and an objectivist perspective, right? So I’m not religious and materialistic about this world. Like, if there’s something else, I’ll take my chances when I get there. I want to make this the best it can be, right? And that doesn’t mean materialistic is just only, like, say about getting money, no materials in this world. It’s about this world and so much of what we call spirituality for me is about consciousness, right? So, what’s my artistic ability? What’s my sensitivity to my friends? And my appreciation of my friends, my love of my friends, right? It’s like, that’s as material as anything. And so, I think the things like meditation and exercise can make you appreciate this world, right? I mean, you feel healthy. You know, Alex once told me – and it was a little bit of a disagreement I had, not like an argument or anything – Alex and I argued, I loved him so much. But he said, what was it? Oh, “Buddhism says all life is suffering,” right? So I thought about that because Alexa Fox says something, I think, about it. And I’m like, okay, well, maybe 2000 years ago. I mean, you know, life was bad, that was real struggle. So, I’m not so sure. If he was here today, he’d probably go, “Suffering is a part of life.” But a lot of life’s not suffering, right? So it’s like, by being healthy, you feel good in the world, then the world seems good. If you don’t feel good, right? And so, you know, genetics plays a big part, I think. He’s staying busy having a goal, reason to get up in the morning, having good relationship. Thank God, right? I mean, that’s a big support and that makes life a good place.

Greg: Yeah. You mentioned Alex, he’s obviously a huge influence on my life, personally. And who’s influenced you the most in your life? If you were to think.

Jack: Yeah. It’s a good question, it’s a nice question. I really like it because it makes you think about all the people that have been in your life, right? And I think who has influenced me the most has been my friends. Right now, you know, it’s good to have positive friends because they’re the people who you kind of are like, well, that’s the way you become.

Greg: Yeah, you become who you’re surrounded with.

Jack: Exactly, right. So yeah, I mean, I’ve got philosophical heroes and spiritual heroes and educational heroes. But when you think about who’s, you know, the most influential – my wife, my best friends, you know? And thank God for them.

Greg: Was there a moment or a period of time and maybe it’s – I mean, you’ve been so prolific, I think, with your realization of your goals that you created – but was there a moment or sort of a place that you realized that you were really capable of doing things greater than what you thought you could do? Or have you always just been, kind of like, “this is what I’m going to do, I’m going to set up this college?”

Jack: Yeah. It’s an interesting question because I don’t really think about it in those terms. I mean, maybe if you were Bill Gates or something and asked that question. Like, wow, what he’s achieved, unbelievable. So I don’t really kind of see, you know, I guess in our little world, I’ve done some pretty cool things but I’ve been just kind of like one foot in front of the other. And in a lot of ways, right? I mean, I went to acupuncture school because it sounded cool, I was interested in the field. You know, we didn’t want to go to LA, to go to either Guitar Institute or the chiropractic school, right? It’s like, okay, I’ll do that. And then I started to see – you know, I was always a good student in high school, college – but there I was like, “Oh, I’m really good at studying this.” So maybe it was then. So immediately I was like – well, I gotta say, I think it’s really that Anna, Rick, and Alex, and Joe had confidence in me or took a chance on me. I mean, that’s all, you know those guys are so great. We had lunch every Tuesday for 20 years, right, it’s so tight. And if you get anything from what I’m saying here, is if you can find a group of people that you can work with like that, you’ll have the best gift that anybody can give you, whether you make a billion dollars or a nickel, right? It’s just so great. Those guys are so great, they’ve always been super generous to me, very appreciative. But the feeling is so mutual. Like I said, when I was in New York, wasn’t so bad. But when I went to Chicago, I was like, I felt a little bit like out on the ladder. You know, out on the game plank. But still, you come back to San Diego and then there’s this team, right? So that’s support network, for sure. And again, having a great wife, you gotta have that. Leanne, if you’re listening, you’re awesome. It’s the thing that I’m probably most proud of, is that someone like her could stand being around me.

Greg: And Jack, your son Jack Jr., nice family, great kids. So last question, then we’ll wrap up here. So, you got to be close to retirement. And it’s like, you’ve been doing it so long. What’s the next five, ten years look like for you? I mean, you don’t have to give me the retirement plan.

Jack: Well, I mean, for sure we want to see the holistic health coach thing and see that fully realized. Although, even if I were to get hit by a bus now, it’s in really good hands with you guys. I think you’re kind of like Joe and Alex, right? I mean, you, Lena, Todd, Stacy. It’s not me just telling people what to do, you guys have as many ideas or more than me and really get what that program, that subject, can do for a graduate and what they can really get out of it and how fun it could be. I mean, that’s one of the things I would like to see. If I did retire, you know, I’m no kind of golfer so I could definitely surf more. So you come down to my Indonesian surf camp and we’ll talk. I kind of slowed up on the race car driving a little bit but, you know, only to really kind of spend more time at home. But, you know, I would probably continue to do something in education whether it’s at a grad level or lower. But what I see that’s missing in a lot of educational issues – not certainly all of them, and there’s some really great innovative educators – but education can be so much fun, right? I mean, human beings, our unique thing is knowledge. We don’t have claws, we’re not the fastest, we can’t fly. I mean, we gotta know stuff and we don’t know stuff, we’re in trouble. So if students understand that and appreciate it right, we can create methods where we inspire kids to learn more and more. And I mean, the internet now is just so great, it’s unbelievable, you could learn almost anything on your own really. What we provide as educators is the motivation, the hierarchy of the knowledge, right? Because you got to make sure you’re doing it in the right order, otherwise you get something too advanced, you can stop because I just confuse you and you go, “I can’t get it.” But if you do it step by step, you can learn it. And then the discipline, right? I used to tell students when I was interviewing, I used to do the second interviews here. I go, “All those books on my shelf, if you just read all of them, studied them hard enough, you would know everything in the curriculum.” Who would do that? Nobody on their own, almost impossible, very unusual. That’s why these great geniuses – the Leonardos, the Galileos, the Isaac Newtons – that taught themselves and created that, I mean, that is so rare. So educators, we’re not going to go out of business anytime soon, even with the internet. But the internet’s a great tool for us, right? I mean, we want to use it in the HHP. Dr. Rhonda Patrick, phenomenal. Listening to her podcast, I mean, it’s a PhD in a model, right? It’s so great, all these guys. Ben Greenfield, I mean, just fantastic information. They should be so proud of what they’re doing and being able to get that information out there for people. And then, we’re just going to use it, you know?

Greg: For those of you who are listening to your radio on long commutes, switch gears and put on a podcast. It’s like, commute university right now. Good stuff out there, for sure. Alright, Jack.

Jack: Yeah, thanks, Greg.

Greg: Yeah, this is awesome. Thank you so much. And thanks, Miles, for the tech help. And good job, our listeners. We’ll post the notes here, as well, too.